Sorry

Hi everyone! Sorry I havent got on here much this semester. No excuses. The whole reason I took the class was to learn more about the bible. And I have. You know its always been there its just I have been blind to some of the things in the bible. You know you dont want to think in a negative way about God and some times in class it seems that way to me. I talked to my pastor because some day I would come to class and tone everyone out cause I felt it went against my religion, but after talking to him he told me to listen a learn. He told me it would be a learning experience and to learn other peoples views and beliefs in the bible and to just stay reading my bible and that I knew what i believed in an nothing should change that if I'm a strong believer. Not saying any one in class is wrong its just my beliefs are different on certain things in the bible.But like I said I have learned and some thing that I have thought about and wonder have came up about in class and have been answered and made me go research things for my self. But have learned.

book from my presentation

"Why Not Women? A Fresh Look at Scripture on Women in Missions, Ministry, and Leadership" by Loren Cunningham and David Joel Hamilton

http://www.amazon.com/Why-Not-Women-Biblical-Leadership/dp/1576581837/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1196100005&sr=8-1

Be sure to read some of its negative reviews... they're hilarious.

Troubled Isn't the Word

"I want to see [Christian children] as radically laying down their lives for the gospel as they are over in Pakistan in Israel in Palestine."

She actually said that.

Concerning the Church of Christ worshipping sans instruments: they base their belief on the fact that there is no mention of them in the New Testament. They take it a step further by claiming that Colossians 3:16 and Ephesians 5:19 are commandments to sing, and to do more than that would be "adding" to the "word of God." Very strange, indeed. I have been a staff member in some capacity at a Church of Christ since 1998, and it's never made any sense to me. I don't have any problem with a capella music--in fact, I love it--but I do have a major problem with someone telling other people they're going to hell because they use instruments. That's ludicrous.

For study's sake: there is a lot evidence that instruments were not a part of Christian worship for hundreds of years. The phrase "a capella" is Latin for "as in chapel." As I recall, the phrase gained prominence as a musical instruction during the Renaissance. When composers desire their work to be done with voices only they instructed performers to relay the work like the music in their churches: without instruments. That much I understand, but that hardly makes sense as a spiritual directive with salvation implications.

Responses: Music in the Church, Socialization of Children

As far as i am aware the only denomination to disallow use of musical instruments is the Church of Christ, they base this belief on one verse in particular, and here is their explanation from church-of-christ.org's FAQ:
"What kind of music is used in the worship?

As a result of the distinctive plea of the church - a return to New Testament Faith and practice - acappella singing is the only music used in the worship. This singing, unaccompanied by mechanical instruments of music, conforms to the music used in the apostolic church and for several centuries thereafter (Ephesians 5:19). It is felt that there is no authority for engaging in acts of worship not found in the New Testament. This principle eliminates the use of instrumental music, along with the use of candles, incense, and other similar elements. "

They don't hold the belief that all music is evil, they just wish to re-create, as closely as possible, the type of worship practiced by the early church. This would obviously be devoid of modern instruments. Also, after having listened to various types of church music, especially contemporary christian radio stations, these guys may really be on to something with the whole "no music" deal.

I'm going to post a couple videos from CNN's "God's Warriors" special from this past August (click the link for the God's Warriors website @ CNN.com) that show how children raised in such enviroments have these ideas further reinforced at various ages.
Part 9



Part 10



Part 11


This is only the last three parts of eleven, and these were also very relevant to the topic being discussed previously.

Here's the rest of it... some of the other parts are also quite frightening, but a few offer a glimpse of hope:
Part 1



The most frightening of these is probably that regarding Liberty University's Law School and graduates in Part 2:




Part 3





Part 4


Jimmy Carter I think has some good things to say about the subject at hand, but Hagee is an absolute nut... i'm genuinely scared that this many people listen to his "Christian-Zionism"

Part 5



Part 6




Part 7




There was actually some stuff that is much closer to what i would consider christianity represented as well. For example:

Part 8

Idolatry?

In the first video I was struck by the President Bush cardboard cut-out. Why would you make kids talk to cardboard? I'm sure visual aids make the brain washing process more effective, but don't the adults see the hypocracy of what they're doing? As Protestant fundamentalists, shouldn't they rethink that particular approach? I found the whole situation to be very golden calf-ish. Anyone else?

Deeply Disturbed

I was deeply disturbed by these videos. Disturbed to the point that I cried at some of the scenes. I cannot say that speaking in tongues is not real. I have never done it and have not seen anyone in my adult life do it. As I mentioned in class my little sister and I remember my father doing it (I even think my stepmother did it but I doubt she would own up to if I asked her), but I was very young, and do not remember any of it. I do not have a problem with it but I do have a problem with what these people are doing to these kids.
I cried watching that little girl. She looked (I cannot even describe how she looked). I just wanted to grab her and take her away from all it. I wanted to take all of those children away. I cannot believe their parents sat by and watched. Anyone under the age of about sixteen is too young to claim that they have experienced something like that. Especially, in that type of setting with people all but making them do it. Children believe nearly everything an adult tells them and these people are taking advantage of their innocence.
I was baptised at the age of ten or so, and should not have been until I was out of high school. I did not understand my religion then. I still don't, but at least now I know enough to be able to make that decision. In bible school and camp these kids should be learning the basic stories of Creation (not that I am a creationist, I completely believe in evolution and that the world is a lot older that 5000 years), Noah and Jesus, not how to convulse on the floor. Their knowledge needs to gradually grow. As it grows they will be able to decide for themselves what denomination and what religion they want to follow. If you start out with the basics they will asked questions, they will study and learn. I probably believe this way because it was how I was raised and how I learned about Christianity, and I think it worked. I feel secure in my beliefs and informed of my religion. Yes I have question. I will always have questions but that is because no one will ever know how much of the bible is literally true and how much of was altered to suit someones opinion.
I do believe in God but God and I would have some serious problems if I saw any of my nieces or nephews doing that. (Actually, my problem would not be with God it would be with whoever taught them to do it.) But if God was actually doing it HE/SHE and I would be having words. If HE/SHE wants someone to teach the word, to prophecy or anything else HE/SHE needs to go through me not my babies. Kids should not, under any circumstances, be used like that.
I do not see it as cute, or interesting, or see them as being blessed. I see it as them being abused, used, and forced into a world that they should be left innocent to.

Jesus Camp/Speaking in Tongues

Have any of you seen this documentary? It is insane. I'll try and post a few clips. This scared the hell out of me. The first one has a woman calmly speaking in tongues for those of you who've never heard it.

This last one is pretty long, but it shows an adult instructing kids to speak in tongues, so I thought I would include it. This lady actually says that kids are "usable" in Christianity.

Music in the Church

That video that Grace posted has got me thinking. (By the way, it is totally hilarious! My favorite part is when the crowd does the backwards "wave" by falling into their seats.) Music is such a big part of the way I study and write that I have several playlists that I use to get motivated. This music is in the background when I type journal entries, work on presentations and blog. As this semester has progressed, my biblical list has grown into about fifteen songs. My tastes are eclectic, ranging from old school folk ballads and gospel to more hip-hop and rock flavored stuff. Also, while I was researching Kabbalah I found all kinds of instrumental music I liked and eventually added to my playlist.

And that brings me to this question: What denominations rule out using musical instruments during worship and why? Also, can these instruments be used in instances that are not worship-driven, or is it all the devil's music? I do know that the Bible never comes right out and says that guitars and tambourines are bad, and singing is pretty much universally accepted.

Historically, musical instruments were a huge part of pagan celebrations. So I'm thinking that is part of the puzzle, but there has to be more. Anybody feel like explaining it to me?

tongues and video

That was very informative, Anna Beth. I'm surprised that you can recall the specific jibberish used by the lady in the pew. It seems like the other Biblical passages are used to justify any type of expression

On the video---I love it!!! I have to show it to as many as possible.

Speaking in Tongues

I did a little bit of Biblical research on speaking in tongues.
[by research, I mean that I asked my husband... he knows a lot about such matters :) ]

According to my husband (and to most Pentecostal churches that I've been to), there are two types of speaking in tongues mentioned in the Bible, although the text never specifically says that they are different... leading to our confusion in class as to how the babbling many of us have heard in churches is a reflection of the Acts 2 Pentecost story - and also to a pretty big theological debate.

The first type of speaking in tongues - "natural" or "foreign" tongues is what we read about in Acts 2. "They were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to talk in other tongues, as the Spirit gave them power of utterance" (Acts 2:4). For the purpose of spreading the Gospel, believers were given the ability to speak foreign languages. I think this story is the only instance of the gift of foreign tongues in the NT.

Okay, so, the second type is "spiritual" or "heavenly" tongues, and this one is more frequently mentioned in the NT. Acts 10:46 - "for they could hear them speaking in tongues of ecstasy and acclaiming the greatness of God." This language does not appear to be understood by anyone, but is a tongue of ecstasy. The same thing happens in Acts 19:6, with the addition of prophesy. Mark 16:17-18 (the snake-handling verses) says that believers will "speak in strange tongues." 1 Corinthians 12-14 is where the most info about speaking in heavenly tongues is given. Paul acknowledges that some have the gift of tongues, and some have the ability to interpret them. He mentions speaking in the tongues of angels (but notes that it - like all things - is worthless without LOVE). In Ch. 14, he emphasizes that if tongues are not interpreted, they're gibberish. But, he also says that this is the language of prayer (verse 14), with which his spirit prays... which seems to say that an interpretation is not needed if one is praying alone in his closet a la Matthew 6:6.

(You can read more about this here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossolalia. Glossolalia is Greek for tongue-speaking.)

I wonder if the authors of the NT only had the first kind of speaking in tongues in mind... and church leaders have since constructed the second form of speaking in tongues so that some people could "shandalah" (it all sounds like that to me) and feel much holier-than-thou without having to have an actual miracle. I think you could very easily read the first type of tongue-speaking onto the 1 Corinthians 14 verses (interpretation is necessary), but I acknowledge that this is a MUCH bigger topic that I can fully explore in this blog. :)

So, I'll share a story. My husband and I used to go to a traditional, old school, Pentecostal church (don't even ask me why). And every Sunday morning, when there would be a lull in the worship, we knew it was coming: a little old lady would rise up out of her pew and say, "Shandalah... rahshahkosomarlaseeto... errahshambada"... and the pastor would get this expression on his face (as if he were receiving the word from the Lord), and then say something completely generic like "God wants us to know that He loves us and He is with us this morning. Hallelujah." And everyone would clap like a miracle had just taken place. They legitimated this process with 1 Corinthians 12-14... but, it seemed so obvious to me that this was no representation of a "spiritual gift" that Paul talks about: it was just a tradition, a way to make the congregation feel that God was there with them.

Video

That was great. I had to show it to Russell, and he said that the only way that would have been funnier is if they used "Smack My Bitch Up" by Prodigy as the song. By the way Drowning Pool does this song not Manson. Although, it would have been more sacrilegious if they used one of his songs considering everyone thinks he is the Antichrist. Thanks for posting it. I had never seen it, and it is absolutely hilarious. :) hahahahahahaha

What'd the five fingers say to the face?

Wow...

I think I might have mentioned this before, but I never knew before I took this class that anything outside of the canonical Bible existed. I thought some of the other stuff we have read was interesting, but the Infancy Gospel of Thomas blew my mind! No wonder this wasn't included in the Bible! According to this, Jesus acted like any other bratty child except he had the power to kill kids that made him mad! Of course people couldn't lend any real credit to this because it would destry the image of Jesus being perfect and faultless. This kind of negates the whole "Honor thy father and mother" commandment...

corporate

thanks!

"Corporate" Prayer?

After our discussion this morning, I did a quick google search on "corporate prayer." A ton of info came up about it, but I couldn't find anything that commented on the use of the loaded term "corporate," nor could I find anything about the origins of its use. My search of all English translations of the Bible on biblegateway.com came up with ZERO uses of "corporate."

I found this to be interesting, though: http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/etc/printer-friendly.asp?ID=112 This is a sermon by Jonathan Edwards (the "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" guy), but I'm pretty sure that the author of the website added its title, "Jonathan Edwards on Corporate Prayer." I didn't see that Edwards used that term at all, only "cooperation in prayer."

There's even a corporateprayer.org! http://corporateprayer.org/

As I mentioned in class, my church has corporate prayer 14 times a week, and you can read about it here: http://calvaryfellowship.com/prayer.htm :)

My biggest question now is, when did "corporate prayer" become such a common term? Obviously, it was after Jonathan Edwards (who preached in the 1750s), as he talks about common or group prayer in his sermon, but does label it as "corporate."

My 'blog

Visit my personal 'blog sometime: click here.

Today's Extra Meeting

Today (11/14) we'll be meeting at Ryan's around 2:00 p.m. You don't have to eat if you don't want to, but if you choose to, don't forget to figure in an extra dollar or two for our server's tip. We'll be in the back room on the right (the front-side of the building).

We'll be discussing The Infancy Gospel of Thomas, and, if you would like, more on the Gnostics.

See you all then!

lunch

I'd certainly like to get together again. I'm free after our class til 1 and after 3 on monday and wednsday. Fridays i'm busy til 4. tuesday and thursday i'm free all day. Just let me know...

I missed class yesterday because I have a head cold, can anyone tell me what we should be reading for Monday. I am also up for meeting outside of class again. I have not eaten at Ryan's in awhile so I am not sure how the food tastes, but if everyone else is game, I am. I am free MWF after our class, TTH after 315 and anytime most weekends.

lunch

I'd like to get together as we did before. The room sounds good and maybe we'd be able to talk more easily.

Suggestion

I'd like to suggest another late-lunch meeting. Perhaps we could go to Ryan's and get one of the back rooms. It would be quiet and we would be able to face each other around a big table. I know some people don't like the food there--I've heard it called trough eating--but I love it!

What do you think?

Which day is best for you?

Hells yeah Jennifer!!

I have to agree whole-heartedly with Jen. The sadistic cult should have a little morality when they protest. I must admit, that has to be the most absurd reason to protest...if they are just looking for something to protest, they might have better success arguing the effectiveness of gravity...that makes more sense than saying a person who was ordered to go to war is going to hell for following orders. I completely disagree with the argument...gravity is very effective.

Harmony of the Gospels

I think it's funny to see that title because it implies that they are all in agreement. I won't expound right now because I don't have time, but the link is below.

Click here.

Click here for a more user-friendly version that allows you to click the verse references in order to read each account.

Finally, click here for the best study tool I have ever encountered. It's all free! Just download the program and add whatever modules you want! There are multiple translations, commentaries, dictionaries, atlases, language references, et cetera. You won't believe what all is available.

John and America

I think Elliot makes a good point about how Jesus responds.

and on God and America--That church is the Westboro Baptist from Kansas. A few years ago, they were protesting here at a funeral in Greenhill.

"God Hates America"

The other night I caught the tail end of a 20/20 episode about this church (cult in my opinion) in Kansas that went around the world protesting at the funerals of a war victims. How heartless and soulless can a person be to lead a protest at a funeral. I mean thier protest is ridiculous no matter where they do it but a funeral. Aperently they have never actually read the Bible or any other religious book if they think they are doing this for God or on God's behalf. They are claiming that God hates America, and that we are all going to hell because of homosexuality. They are teaching their children to sing songs that go ""Thank God for dead soldiers" "God hates fags." "God is your enemy," "God hates fag enablers." "God Hates America" to the tune of "God Bless America." " (Where's DHR when you really need them.)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21566280/ &
http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/wireStory?id=3802376

Have more info. on the story. During the part of the program the son and daughter of the preacher were being interviewed and they were so angry at the questions and the logical points that were being made by the person doing the interview. I do not understand people. Nor the thoughts that go through their head. It also angers me that people who claim to be followers of God are so ignorant, agressive, and arrogant. How can anyone claim to know the mind of God. For anyone to say that they know for sure that a certain person or groups of person are going to hell is blashphmous. All I have to say to these people is if I am going to hell I will meet them there. Sorry this episode really angered me. I had gotten over my anger until I had to go back and look for the info. on it. Writing this really set me off. Our converstation at the end of class reminded me of it.

Miracles In John

When reading John, I noticed that there seemed to be somewhat of a contradiction. At first, it seems as if Jesus is performing miracles to gain followers. He tells Nathanael that he will see "greater things than that." This came across to me like he was trying to prove his divinity to the people by the miracles he was performing. However, after the officer asks him to heal his son, he acts as if it is rude of him to do so. He says:
"Will none of you ever believe without seeing signs and portents?" (John 4:48)
It seemed to be somewhat of a contrast to the earlier instances.

The cosmic battle for heaven

I've always wanted to comment about this topic because of my affinity for George Lucas and a few of his cohorts. After watching the new 'Star Wars' films for the first time since beginning this class, I began to notice the relation between the cult classic and religious stories. These similarities have been addressed before (by people much more educated on the subject than I), but I seem to be missing something....does Jesus play Luke Skywalker, or Anakin Skywalker? In the new movies, Anakin has no father...immaculate conception. However, during the original trio, Luke is always dressed in white--while he battles Darth Vader, a.k.a. Anakin Skywalker. I'm curious if the story writers neglected to pay attention to the fact Anakin would become the diabolical leader of the EVIL Empire or if Luke never 'manned-up' on his part of "The Chosen One"...My point in this little blab session is to prove people's poor attention span. If we as a species are supposedly 10 times more accomplished than the times that Jesus actually lived, then why are we overlooking simple details. Consider this....if a writer can lose the complete direction of a piece, then what could lead us to believe people in Biblical times were more aware???? Me confused.....

Even more on Matthew

Jennifer- I understand your frustration about Matthew 5:27-30 (lustful eye, tear it out, fling it away). The next two verses scared the hell out of me when I was a little kid-

"They were told, 'A man who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of dismissal.' But what I tell you is this: If a man divorces his wife for any cause other than unchastity he involves her in adultery; and whoever marries her commits adultery."

My parents had each been divorced before they met each other and that verse made my 7-year-old-self hysterical.

Beginning in verse 21 of chapter 5, the author sets up a pattern in which Jesus reminds his audience of a particular Judaic law, then counters the old law with a newer one that seems more strict. I think, and again this is just my interpretation, that the second half of this chapter is really more about debunking the Pharisees than imparting new commandments. It emphasizes that the spirit of the law is more important than the letter of the law, and encourages the Jews to internalize the laws, which would make the Pharisees' role as spiritual law-enforcement less necessary.

I don't know if I'm making any sense, so I'll just stop here!

More on Matthew

Amen Kellie! Especially for that last part. This was the first time I have ever read that line and I was shocked to read it. I now have ammo to use when people want to try and "parade" their version of Christianity in my face. I am all about having intellectual conversations on the subject but I really hate when people are so hell bent and determined to not listen to any argument and are constantly going "see here is what my religion has done" or "this is how much greater my interpretation of the bible is to yours." I have a big beef with Christianity because of this. I really do not believe a person should force their beliefs on anyone. I think it is a bit shameful at how far people in this world will go to force their interpretation of any religious text on another person.
I have a few other things to say about Matthew also. I am have a big problem with the section in Chapter 5 that states "If a man looks at a woman with a lustful eye, he has already committed adultry with her in his heart. If your right eye causes your downfall, tear it out and fling it away; it is better for you to lose one part of your body than for the whole of it to be thrown into hell. (Matt 5:28-29)" I do not know about anyone else but I cannot always control what I think. Hell sometimes I cannot control what comes out of my mouth let alone what pops into my head at any random moment. I find it hard to believe that I am going to be condemed for eternity for the things that I think. I cannot count the number of times I have looked over at Russell and thougth about strangling him (hahaha), or the number of times I have found some man or woman sexually attractive. I realize this is more information than most of you need about me but still they are real thoughts that pop into my head and for the most part pop back out just as quickly as they popped in, so no harm on foul. Besides just because I think about doing something does not mean I am going to go right out and do it. Now there is a good chance that if I think about saying something I say it before I can stop myself, which is why a good number of people think that I am a mean person. I also do not understand the cut out your eye or cut off your arm if it does you harm. You are in control of your body if your eye or arm does something YOU made it do it (unless you have some strange medical problem that causes you to do such things). I hope what is really meant here is if you are with people who do bad things or are in a situation where bad things are going to happen that you should get away from them or it.
To go back to the first part of that section again I noticed that in chapter 15 Jesus is claimed to have said "what comes out of the mouth has its origins in the heart. (Matt15:18)" I can kind of understand this but some of what I say and I think I really do not mean. I do not think I am as bad of a person as I it would appear by my thoughts that I am. Although I am not in the practice of coddling people therefore some of what I do think and say is true and needs to be thought and said. We lie to much these days to save other peoples feelings when we are really hurting them more, in the long run. than we are helping them. I had another two paragraphs or so here but I deleted them because I went into more of a rant than I really needed to got into. The above should be enough for anyone reading this to get where I am going with my thoughts.

Before we move completely away from Matthew, I just wanted to talk about a few things that stuck out to me:

First, going back to the narrative in Exodus that explains the plagues in Egypt: In Exodus 7:5 the Lord says, "When I exert my power against Egypt and bring the Israelites out from there, then the Egyptians will know that I am the Lord." The Lord is saying that he is inflicting the Egyptians with these plagues just for the purpose of showing them his powers and that He is the one true God. This narrative came to mind when I read Matthew 8:23-27. It tells the narrative of Jesus and his disciples being in a boat on a lake when a great storm comes. Jesus is just sleeping and all the disciples are scared. They wake him up and he calls them all cowards and immediately stops the storm and calms the waters. It seems like Jesus performs this miraculous act just so the disciples will see his power and fully believe in him even more.

Also, In Matthew 9:27-31, Jesus heals a blind man just because the blind man had faith that he would be healed. But, when the healing was complete, Jesus sternly told him, "See that no one hears about this," like something shady has just taken place. Didn't Jesus come to heal the people and perform miracles and save the world? Why would He want one of His good deeds to be kept a secret? (By the way, the man went out anyway and told everybody he knew about Jesus healing him...)

Fianlly, I just wanted to point out one of the verses that has been very useful to me in the past. It is Matthew 6:1 - "Be careful not to parade your religion before others; if you do, no reward awaits you with your Father in heaven." Do people like Roy Moore just skip over this verse in the Bible? I used this verse in a persuasive speech I gave in the 11th grade against Roy Moore. That was about the time the whole "Ten Commandments" uproar was in full swing, and I thought the man was a fool for running around, actually saying that Christians rights were being trampled upon? Are you kidding me? I am a Christian and I never once have felt like my rights have been trampled on in this country. It was a political ploy. And whenever someone would say to me that what Roy Moore was doing was a noble thing, I'd throw Matthew 6:1 in there. (Sorry for the digression and mini-rant...)