The Bible and Church

Good arguements could be made for the inseparability of the church and bible, as well as the converse. The church existed, albeit in a somewhat different format, before the bible. This would lead one to believe that they are different entities. However, the church also created the bible (chose which works should be "canonical") and later edited, and translated it for the purpose of having a guiding document. Knowing this, it seems like separating the two would be like separating chicken and eggs. But given the course Christianity and all its divisions have taken, and many of them basing their differences on minor theological points not present in any "revealed" scripture, it appears the church has distanced itself from the Bible. Also the disparity in tenets between sects of Christianity, all which claim to follow the Bible, makes the book seem a bit less like an absolute document, and more like a malleable tool. Hence the different versions for Catholic, Orthodox, Coptic, Gnostic and Protestant divisions. Since each church would be somewhat separate from differing churches respective bibles, the notion of the Bible being separate from church seems to be the more accurate. Just as any religious text can be quite separate from its corresponding organized religion.

Noah

In response to "Genesis" The Serpent as Satan

Equating the serpent with Satan may have its roots in Egyptian mythology. Apep was the serpent of the underworld and also the enemy of Ra (or Re), an Egyption sun god and creator deity. Since the two groups are quite close geographically, it would make sense for Judaism, and later by proxy Christianity to borrow heavily from this older tradition. The term Satan may also have its roots in Egypt, since Set (also pronounce Seteh, Seth, among others) was worshiped in ancient "Lower Egypt," which is actually in the North, close to the land of the Hebrews. As it is documented these groups did not get along. Satan may be a slanderous form of the Egyptian god's name or perhaps the result of different dialects. Set was also the enemy of Horus, another sun god who was part of the ruling triad of Ra, Osirus, and Horus. The latter is often equated with Christ due to his being considered son, brother, and different incarnation of Ra, and the reincarnated form of Osirus, (Egyptian mythology is convoluted... long story short a son figure and key link in what could be considered a trinity... but that may be a stretch) death & rebirth and the veneration and worship of his mother, Nepthys, in addition to many other similarities. This is all speculation of course, but certainly interesting to think about.

Noah

The Bible and Ritual

I want to comment on what Nancy mentioned about Catholicism and the Bible. It makes sense that studying Catholicism would make it easier to see the Bible for what it is - a religious text, not the be all and end all of faith as we know it. And, I appreciate the separation. At the same time, I can see how those of the Protestant faith might object to the ceremony that Nancy describes. That particular ritual might reinforce feelings of reverence for believers, but not necessarily strict adherence to the rules.

on Enoch

I spent quite a bit of time in grad school working on medieval drama. My dissertation director Sarah Beckwith was, at that time, writing a book on the York cycle plays. But we read the Chester and N-town plays also. These plays usually begin with the play of Adam and Eve, do the Noah story, do the Moses story, etc--all the Bible's highpoints. One of the cycles (I don't remember exactly which one) includes the Enoch play. He is zapped up into heaven without dying. that is what I remember most about Enoch. Also in my research for my last article on John Mirk's sermons, Mirk talks about this same thing--Enoch rising bodily into heaven. I will have to find this (right now, my study is a huge mess because we are painting and getting new flooring). I suppose that this bodily ascension is somewhere in Enoch. I've read almost 20 chps. so far.

nancy

the bible and church

Hi All,

Finally, I am able to read what you've said and talk too. I like reading about how you are thinking about the Bible and church and want to contribute.

I have come to see them as totally separate. It helped when for 7 years, I was a Catholic. In mass, the Bible is paraded down the aisle like a statue or incense holder. Then 3 parts are spoken aloud during the liturgy (one from the OT, then NT, then one of the gospels). Everyone stands for the gospel reading. I see it as almost ornamental, a part of the larger ritual.
nancy

sunday school vs. lit class

In all our classroom discussions so far, it's been a challenge for me to separate the Bible as a literary text from the Bible I learned about in Sunday school. (This wouldn't be so hard if the two weren't often so dissimilar.) When I re-read the creation stories in Genesis, I struggled to keep my mind clear of the big cardboard numbers of the different days of creation with corresponding cut-outs of stars and elephants and Adam and Eve with strategically-placed fig leaves. When I did, I was able to see (and argue with my husband about) the overwhelming differences between the two creation stories. How did I miss this? Why was I never taught the differences? Are Christians afraid to question the Bible for fear that it will fail us?

I agree with Karen that the church is nothing without the Bible, or so it claims. (I think the typical American Protestant church would be in a greater state of crisis without dresses and ties and casseroles than it would be without the Bible.)

I'm not very far along in the Enoch story yet (Ch. 15) but it seems to provide an "explanation" for Genesis 6:4 "In those days as well as later, when the sons of the gods had intercourse with the daughters of mortals and children were born to them, the Nephilim were on the earth; they were the heroes of old, people of renown." What??? In my church experience (it doesn't look like I can keep them separate!), this verse has either been completely ignored or something along the lines of "Ah, the mysteries of God..." has been used to explain it. I'm excited to hear what the class thinks about this and the book of Enoch tomorrow.

a.b.k.r.

Enoch

I am not sure if this is exactly what I should be posting on this blog but I thought it was interesting. I have being reading Enoch and have gotten to about chapter 15 and as I was reading scenes from a Television movie I have just recently seen kept popping into my head. The movie is Fallen and I think has been airing on the Family Chanel and maybe even the SiFi Chanel. It is about the Nephellim and their children. Being a fiction movie it does take a lot of liberties and goes off into many different directions but it sounds very familiar to this story. So if anyone found this story interesting they might want to check out the movie. FYI it is not the movie with Denzel Washington in it but it is about six hours long.

Answers to Joey

1) I do think that the church and the bible can be separated and viewed as individual concepts and ideas. However, I think that it takes a certain willingness to be open minded and receptive to other forms of literature, thoughts and knowledge to differentiate between the two. I also think that it is a very hard thing to accomplish, even if said person is willing.

2) The bible to the church is like air to people. If there was no bible, church officials would have nothing to base their ideas of faith or morals upon. The Bible is a work that almost all christians have based their ideas of faith, love, hope and death from. Preachers use this work to validate their claims of "God said ______, so you should follow, no questions asked". To many, if there were no bible, there would be no church. I think that if the Bible was never written, somewhere along the way humanity would have written something that would be similar as far as morals. I also think that churches would still exist (or have been formed) they just would have a different premises and base way of thought.

These are my thoughts for answers to Joey's questions!
~Karen~

Genesis

I just finished reading Chapters 1-4 in Genesis and I am a bit curious about the mark of Cain. Does anyone know what exactly the mark is supposed to look like? Is it mentioned anywhere else in the bible? I knew that Cain had been banished for the murder of his brother but somehow I had heard nothing about the mark.
I found another thing very interesting in the foot note on page 13. It states that the serpent was not originally seen as the Devil. I was raised on this idea. Not seeing it as such kind of takes away from the seduction of the temptation. It also makes me even more mad about the eating of the apple. Satan is portrayed as a great tempter and if the serpent was not Satan then it makes me feel as Eve should have been able to resist easier. I do not know it just loses some of its impact if the serpent is not seen as the Devil.

Link to Extra Works

Below is the url for a page of links to pseudepigrapha, apocrypha, non-canonicals, etc.
http://www.pohick.org/sts/extra.html

Bible = Church?

I'm watching Lil' Bush right now, so naturally I'm think about the Bible! (ha!)

Today in class I heard a lot of people associating the Bible with church. I'm just wondering if we might be able to gain more from this study if we can try to view the Bible and the church as separate entities.

1. Do you think the two are inseparable?

2. How does the Bible relate to church?